CEN/TC304/WG2 N396R
Date: 1995-03-23
Title: Minutes of the 7th meeting of TC304/WG2
Source: Michael Everson
Status: Adopted Minutes
Áras Chonradh na Gaeilge, 6 Sráid Fhearchair, Baile Átha Cliath 2, Éire
Thursday, 1995-02-09, 9:30-18:30
1.1 Opening of the meeting.
Michael Everson welcomed everyone on behalf of Everson Gunn Teoranta. Þorvarður Kári Ólafsson selected as convenor. Michael Everson selected as secretary.
1.2 Roll Call of members:
AT Gerhard Budin
DK Keld Simonsen
FI Martti Lahti
FI Klaas Ruppel
GB John Clews
IE Michael Everson
IS Þorvarður Kári Ólafsson
LV Imants Mïtra (guest)
1.3 Adoption of Agenda.
Project 2.1 is more important than Project 11 at this point.
1.4 Minutes of the 6th meeting of WG2 (N376R) approved.
1.5 Actions (for the full text of the completed action items please see the dated reference to the meeting at which the action items originated):
AI9406-02 Work on fonts has been progressed, first 50 tables of 10646 are defined in Fontographer, all characters in the Extended Subset will soon be avilable (10- and 12-point bitmaps to be polished, some other issues abut export to different platforms to be resolved. Fonts will be available in Mac, PC, Sun, NeXT format in ftp://dkuug.dk/CEN/TC304/Everson/ EversonMono10646.
AI9406-04 P11: language selection: closed. This is P11 discussion.
AI9406-05 Question of appeal procedures of registration. (This AI was closed and only carried over because we didn't know what this item was at the last meeting.)
AI9406-12 AI on Keld Simonsen re: the terminology '"'cultural elements'"' vs. '"'cultural conventions'"' closed. This is P2.1 discussion. This involves JTC1/SC2/WG20.
AI9406-16 Report on errors and incompleteness in POSIX cultural element specifications. Michael Everson sent draft to Keld Simonsen. Keld Simonsen to forward it to POSIX guys. Þorvarður Kári Ólafsson to provide input to Keld Simonsen.
AI9406-17 Michael Everson to make new draft of N339, registry items based on DS Posix Locales, after format in 2.1 is approved. This is a standing AI dependent on the final structure of 2.1.
AI9406-18 After completion of AI9406-17, AI on working Group and Member Bodies commenting on N339 on locale formats concerning format and comments. This is a standing AI dependent on the final structure of 2.1.
AI9411-01 Keld Simonsen to provide draft of an informative annex 6.2 on Narrative Cultural Specifications clauses. Open AI. Þorvarður Kári Ólafsson will have input.
AI9411-02 Keld Simonsen says that this AI is done. He has a branch of the EWOS tree OID.
AI9411-03 Keld Simonsen has text from Jürgen Bettels on this AI; to be technical discussion today.
AI9411-04 Keld Simonsen to provide draft for Cultural TR (P2.2)
AI9411-05 Keld Simonsen has taken everything he has seen so far. Closed.
AI9411-06 Michael Everson, Gerhard Budin, Klaas Ruppel to provide input for names and taxonomy of languages. Open issue.
AI9411-07 Evangelos Melagrakis to provide information on the use of Tsakonian as a written language in Greece and on the use of Coptic as a liturgical language in Greece.
AI9411-08 Done.
AI9411-09 WG2 to propose new 2-letter codes to TC37 for ISO 169:1988 based on languages in P11. Still an open AI. Michael Everson and Keld Simonsen to make proposals to TC37.
AI9411-10 This has been done. Closed.
AI9411-11 Keld Simonsen to do negotiations with X/Open on liaison. Still open.
2. Liaisons.
Transposition. ISO 9945-2 is out for vote into EN. It may affect text of 2.1. AI9502-01 Þorvarður Kári Ólafsson and Keld Simonsen to get formal liaison for Þorvarður Kári Ólafsson for WG20.
3. Documents identified:
N371, N374, N384, N384add, votes from FI, IS (to become N384R) FI BÁC1, Microsoft document from LV BÁC2, IS (þjóðlegur krövur) BÁC3, European article BÁC4, Lithuanian doc BÁC7, Icelandic comments BÁC8, Greek comments BÁC9
Discussion: Keld Simonsen gave an overview of the voting. There are a number of countries voting:
Yes: AT, BE, NO, SE, (SI)
Yes/Comments: CH, DE, DK, GB, FI, IE, IS, (LV)
No/Comments: NL
Undetermined: GR (seems to be Yes/Comments)
Abstention: IT, ES, FR, PT, LU
Assuming this has passed, we are now preparing a prENV document in time to be voted on by the TC on at Stockholm to be sent out for formal vote.
We should schedule a WG2 meeting in Stockholm before the TC there. A disposition document for information will be distributed and new draft for decision will be sent out one month before the meeting (by 27 March 1995). Þorvarður Kári Ólafsson will need the documents by 24 March 1995.
We should provide a "disposition of comments". Michael Everson will make notes here and forward them to Keld Simonsen who will make a formal "disposition of comments" document, which will be for info for TC.
We should accomodate the comments on the Yes votes and the No vote if possible. Discussion on the comments:
FI: Yes, a new section on Typographical Conventions should be included as number 32 in section 6.2. FI was concerned about the term "not available" referred to "missing information" was of a cultural kind (e.g., the lack of abbreviation for day names in Finnish), but the context of this term referred to "missing information" in the administrative part of the registration procedure on the form to be sent in, where proposers supply information on who has sent the information, the address, telephone number and so on for contact, and there could then be missing for example the fax number of the submitter, or email address - this should then be listed on the registration form as "not available".
BE: No comments.
NO: No comments.
CH: CH provided text for OID specifications. DK, IE, SE also commented on naming conventions. To be discussed after lunch.
UK: Suggests that Annex E be deleted. IE suggested same in comments, FI and IS agree. We will delete it. Other UK comments are for Secretariat (re: make voting procedures plainer on cover sheet).
IE: Re 3.2: Narrative descriptions having precedence over POSIX. In ISO the verbal has over the formal specifications, which is in accord with IE comments. Imants Mïtra suggests that for implementation, the formal should have precedence, as long as they are in accord. If you can't read the POSIX specification. What are the practical inplications if there is an error; who changes it? Precedence does not really affect the registry per se, it affects those that provide the entries. If there are errors in the entries then they should be corrected; if the Registration Authority believes there is an error, then the Registration Authority is to contact the sponsoring body. We don't need this addition to Section 3.2. Registration Authority is to check consistency of Narrative/POSIX submissions (Section 4), and to sponsoring Authorities to use Narrative as basis for POSIX.
Re: 5.1: TC304 can only submit entries relating to the whole of Europe. Text to be emended to reflect this. Cf. Comments from GR which refer to decisions taken at the December meeting on this point.
Re: Page 8 Line 9: the text in 4.b actually states this, so no change needs to be made.
Re: 6.1: The whole question is still unresolved; cf. the SE comments below.
Re: 6.11: To be discussed.
Re: Annex A: IE to sumbit the Annex A sheet in WP format.
Re: Gaelic script: IE to supply the alphabet in .TIFF format. Supply the entire document in PostScript? IE will AI on Keld Simonsen to tell Michael Everson what format he wants.
Re: Length of Danish example in D3: Keld Simonsen says that the bare bones is enough for the standard and easier to print; Michael Everson says that a more detailed example is better help to the end user. John Clews echoes this. Þorvarður Kári Ólafsson suggests we keep both: John Clews says let's put both in for the vote, with "a simple example is" and "a more complicated example would be".
DE: Comments not submitted.
SI: No comments.
LV: New Annex from Nordic Cultural handbook will answer the Latvian desire for more specification on the types of cultural elements.
AT: No comments.
NL: No with comments. Editor: Concern about clashing with ISO is also a concern of ours. CEN is taking this item up, because ISO doesn't have the resources, and CEN says we do have resources. WG20 knows we are working on this. CEN is making a registry of descriptions of Cultural elements which are known to be required in all cases. CEN will investigate progressing this as an ISO standard (presumably afterwards). John Clews sees it like the 10646/Unicode work: mutual benefit accrued at the end anyway. Þorvarður Kári Ólafsson pointed out that the Luxemboug Workshop showed that both the Commissions and the vendors need this material and that Europe should take the lead. Michael Everson noted that according to the NL comments, SC22 has voted not to do anything for the foreseeable future, which is a reasonably clear indication about "the direction SC22 is going to take." They seem to consider the draft to be "premature" (which is not the same as "immature"), but this doesn't seem to give any reason that the specific substance of the draft is faulty. WG2: we agree that good cooperation is needed with ISO, and we believe that this is provided for; therefore we are continuing with this work. The Workshop in Luxembourg has clearly indicated a need for this standard.
GR: discussed (document BÁC9) under 5.1 under the Irish comments, and accepted.
DK: Naming conventions. To be discussed afterwards.
SE: Approved without comments; but Olle Järnefors submitted a number of personal comments.
Re: 1: All will be available in electronic form because it will be scanned in.
Re: 3: Irish comments seem to have dealt with this.
Re: 4: Binary files is what is meant.
Re: 7: The Sponsoring Authority should have the sole responsibility for proposals; Registration Authority should not have responsibility for the content of registrations. Registration Authority could forward proposed changes (comments from others) to the Sponsoring Authority. There are two kinds of comments. those relating to Clause 6 (which may result in rejection of a submission), and those relating to content, which shall be given to sponsoring authorities prior to registration (in case they want to make any changes).
Keld did a very thorough job going over the rest of Olle Järnefors' comments, cf. his disposition of comments.
IS: Alphabet and typography to be added (to item 6 and new item 32); dates are accommodated by POSIX; titles can be discussed under the personal names part (this should be in Keld Simonsen's informative annex).
To be discussed:
Syntax and structure of token identifiers and OIDs. They need to correspond to each other. Cf. comments by CH, DK, IE, SE
Re: DK and IE comments: DK and IE are in agreement that narrative and token names should be isomorphic.
Re: SE wants only one level; but the current levelling is a useful convention for computer applications and we should keep it. SE wants to restrict the number of characters, but this is a POSIX convention and other OS systems should not affect these names.
Re: CH comments: they want a specific "arc" or "branch". Is it better in any way to have it in one? DK asked for shorter identifiers. Michael Everson: The token ID should be the same as the filename, the difference between the Narrative and the POSIX files will be the fact that one is in a Narrative directory and oone in a POSIX directory.
4. Project 11.
There was not time to talk about project 11. The three little pigs will talk off line. (This was done on Saturday and minutes are being forwarded with regard to that ad-hoc meeting.) Gerhard Budin offered to photocopy the UCLA photocopies because of the valuable nature of the collection. Document N398 resulted.
5. Homework for next meeting:
AI9406-02 Glyphs to be provided by Michael Everson for use of TC304 members.
AI9406-16 Report on errors and incompleteness in POSIX cultural element specifications. Keld Simonsen to forward draft of POSIX problems to POSIX guys. Þorvarður Kári Ólafsson to provide input to Keld Simonsen on new POSIX categories.
AI9406-17 Michael Everson to make new draft of N339, registry items based on DS Posix Locales, after format in 2.1 is approved. This is a standing AI dependent on the final structure of 2.1.
AI9406-18. After completion of AI9406-17, AI on working Group and Member Bodies commenting on N339 on locale formats concerning format and comments. This is a standing AI dependent on the final structure of 2.1.
AI9411-01 Keld Simonsen to provide draft of an informative annex 6.2 on Narrative Cultural Specifications clauses. Þorvarður Kári Ólafsson will have input.
AI9411-04 Keld Simonsen still to provide draft for Cultural TR (P2.2)
AI9411-07 Evangelos Melagrakis to provide information on the use of Tsakonian as a written language in Greece and on the use of Coptic as a liturgical language in Greece.
AI9411-09 WG2 to propose new 2-letter codes to TC37 for ISO 169:1988 based on languages in P11. Still an open AI. Michael Everson and Keld Simonsen to make proposals to TC37.
AI9411-11 Keld Simonsen to do negotiations with X/Open on liaison. Still open.
AI9502-01 Þorvarður Kári Ólafsson and Keld Simonsen to get formal liaison procedures working for WG20.
AI9502-02 AI on Keld Simonsen to distribute annex to cultural elements as soon as humanly possible.
AI9502-03 Þorvarður Kári Ólafsson to provide info on POSIX alterations (date inputting etc.) to Keld Simonsen.
AI9502-04 Keld Simonsen to ask Jürgen Bettels about CH comments on version numbers.
AI9502-05 Disposition of comments to be provided by 1995-02-10
AI9502-06 Keld Simonsen to provide revised draft of P2.1 to STRÍ by 1995-03-24
AI9502-07 Michael Everson to provide new draft of P11 to STRÍ by 1995-03-24
6. Next meeting: In April, half day? Probably a whole day.
7. Other business: Nope
8. Closing of meeting, adjournment till 8pm at Bucci's, then to Ryan's after for a drink.