CEN/TC304/WG2 N647R
Date: 1996-09-12
2. Roll call of delegates
CA V. S. Umamaheswaran (observer)
DK Keld Simonsen
FI Erkki Kolehmainen
FR Yves Neuville
GB Bruce Paterson
GR Evįngelos Melagrįkis
IE Michael Everson
IS Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson
NO Trond Trosterud
PL Elz°bieta Broma-Wrzesień
SE Karl-Ivar Larsson
SE Wera Lundström
3. Selection of chair, secretary and drafting committee
Michael Everson served as chair. Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson was selected secretary and drafting "committee" of this meeting.
4. Adoption of agenda (N647R); identification and allocation of papers relevant to agenda. Adopted.
5. Adoption of minutes of 12th meeting of WG2 (N617R). Keld Simonsen noted that WG2 conducted some business without him present (he was at an SC22/WG20 meeting).
6. Reports on action items
AI9406-02 Michael Everson to provide fonts for all characters in EES. ONGOING
AI9411-07 Evangelos Melagrakis to provide official confirmation on Tsakonian. CLOSED.
AI9511-12 Keld Simonsen to take contact with TC37 on L/11112a (Terminology formats) OPEN
AI9511-13 WG2 to examine all PT01 proposed ISO work with regard to Vienna agreement (CLOSED)
AI9604-06 members are invited to provide justification for transposition ISO 9995. CLOSED
AI9609-01 TC secretariat: Initiate a vote by correspondence on new WG2 convener. CLOSED
AI9609-02 Keld Simonsen: The exact procedure (fasttracking of DS to ENV 12005 to ISO) needs clarification. DK has distributed 12005 for comment to SC22/WG20. 2 comments recived from uk and jp, will be addresed by DK, and then it will be sent for fast track. CLOSED
AI9609-03 Michael Everson: Convert N339 into narrative form. ONGOING, LT18
AI9609-04 Michael Everson: Provide introductory text for P2.2. ONGOING
AI9609-05 Elzbieta Broma-Wrzesień: Find out more about Kashubian. CLOSED
AI9609-06 Michael Everson: Provide a list of languages where data is missing. OPEN
AI9609-07 Michael Everson: Provide an alphabetical list of languages in P11, referring
to the family or page. ONGOING
AI9609-08 Michael Everson: Add a numbering system in the final version of P11.
AI9609-09 John Clews: Find out whether Khakassian is in Europe.
AI9609-10 Michael Everson: Make the 4th draft of P11 soon available on the WWW. CLOSED
AI9609-11 Michael Everson: Provide a list of possible affirmative/negative answers. CLOSED at meeting.
AI9609-12 Keld Simonsen: Provide a new draft P17 for Email discussion. CLOSED, N618
AI9609-13 Evangelos Melagrakis: Provide actual documents from Glossasoft. CLOSED (Kostas Pirokoulos, [email protected])
AI9609-14 Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: Discuss LEST with Ian Urquhart at the Commission. DELETED
AI9609-15 Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: Forward N615 to WG20. CLOSED in Vienna
AI9609-16 All editors: Compile issues lists from these minutes. P17 and P2.2 CLOSED; P11 OPEN
Evangelos Melagrakis suggests that the conveners of WGs follow up the action items between meetings. Endorsed by Michael Everson.
7. Work Items.
7.1. Project 2.1: Registration of Cultural Elements. Revision of ENV 12005. Work item approved. Issues document CEN/TC304 N579. Editor: Keld Simonsen. Papers: N339
Keld Simonsen reported, see liaison. Japanese comments: should WG15 be responsible for it, becaause it includes POSIX locales. Response could be that we are also registering
narrative etc. The BSI commented that this is only an ENV, shouldn't it have 3 years experience.
Bruce Paterson: The BSI coding committe accepted it without any coments, so those comments were from some other part of BSI.
Michael Everson: What about the registration authority? ISO procedures for this must be
followed to get appointment of a registration authority. The CEN appointment is not
enough.
Keld Simonsen reported that there is a problem because the Danish standrd is not yet published (though it is already adopted as DS).
Bruce Paterson raised the question of timeplan. stage 40 means parallel enquiry, that is the
date of launcing the JTC1 ballot. AI9701-01 on Žorvaršur to make sure that the parallel thing
happens.
Keld Simonsen: 165 registrations are already submitted by DS. DKUUG will issue a document listing the 165 different registrations with names and numbers and ref.to a website. TC304
members will be given 90 days to comment. www.dkuug.dk/cultreg (one part for comment,
one part for approved). The registrations are: 1 repertoiremep, 4 narrative specs (in unbound form) for en_DK, dk_DK, gl_GL and fo_FO. 4 POSIX specs and 150 charmaps.
Michael Everson: Where are the MES and EES registrations?
AI9701-02 on Keld Simonsen and Michael Everson to finalize the MES registrations.
Umamaneswaran proposed that the "for comments" part would have restricted access.
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson asked about a reference locale ("european locale"). The en_DK locale implements the latest decisions of WG1 regarding sorting and also includes cap/small mappings
that can be used by others. This is important for STRĶ, because an Icelandic standard on cultural conventions is under publication.
Michael Everson: The joint meeting with WG20 put action on Keld to provide us with
the proposed POSIX syntax for the date extensions.
Keld Simonsen: I don't have a POSIX syntax, but I have a C syntax, will be copied tomorrow. Michael Everson gave him a document showing the specific problems identified by IE and IS with dates and currencies.
Umamaheswaran raised the question of cooperation with X/Open. Is X/Open giving up the registry?
Keld Simonsen: The CEN registry is intended to take over the role of Xopen and POSIX registries. Some action is needed by TC304 to make this happen (eliminate the other registries).
X/Open is charging so maybe they wil die automatically.
WG2 thanks Danish Standards for its work on having the cultural registry populated.
7.2. Project 2.2 Cultural Elements. Draft document expected 1996-09. Issues document CEN/TC304 N448. Editor: Keld Simonsen.
LT31 Issues list
LT18 draft locales
LT35 English locale for Denmark
(Discussion delayed until tomorrow??) National bodies are not yet invited to comment
on LT31 contents, but WG members are invited to comment on the format.
Umamaheswaran: what is intended to be the final deliverable of the document? Keld: we finish it and put it somewhere on the web, but the WP says CEN report.
Michael Everson: the en_DK is defective. It doesn't specify anything.
AI9701-03 on Michael Everson to coordinate the danish registrations.
Bruce Paterson: do you keep a list of the most urgently required locales for each country in
Europe? AI9701-04 on Keld Simonsen to provide an internal check list for the locales.
Umamaheswaran: clause 9 should also specify the minimum alphabet of the language.
Michael Everson: the categories covered should also be on the checklist.
Bruce Paterson: this is detailed homework for Keld. AI9701-05 Keld Simonsen to translate (automatically) the POSIX specs into narrative ones that also will need some editing.
Trond Trosterud: more guidance is needed on how to make a locale, which clauses are the most important ones etc.
Erkki Kolehmainen: What will be the formal specification method of e.g. spelling rules?
(Tuesday)
The procedure for further development of the document was discussed. The WG will discuss
a web documents (one per locale) and the end result will be printed out for TC enquiry.
AI9701-06 Keld Simonsen to provide new linked draft narrative +POSIX locales on the web.
Can a national body register an entry that is in conflict with existing standard,
e.g. 8601? This is really the responsibility of each national body. STRĶ has decided
to register an entry with numeric date that is not according to 8601.
The available data is in POSIX form and Keld Simonsen will translate them into narrative format.
This will cover clauses 1-6. Which other clauses can be covered in the technical
report? Possibly clauses 9, 10, 11, 22, 29,
Erkki Kolehmainen: if the purpose of this report is to give guidance, then it should include examples
of all clauses.
Keld Simonsen: the puropse is to collect the available data and encourage national
members to correct and complete their entries.
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson proposed to delete this project and merge it with P21, which has the same
purpose and no CEN deliverable.
Umamaheswaran said this is a good idea, because the technical
report would be a living document.
Michael Everson: we still haven't seen an introductory
text. If we don't see it before the next meeting, we should delete the deliverable.
Trond Trosterud: many people feel that the best way to collect correct data is to publish incorrect ones.
Michael Everson: the editor is interested in the data, but not necessarily in a CEN report.
The only thing you need formal approval for is the official entries in the registry.
Erkki Kolehmainen: even putting wrong data on the web is a problem because some people use the data without caring that it is wrong. I know that the finnish dat is wrong and even
how to correct it, but it has to go through a nationa procedure.
Karl-Ivar Larsson: putting on the web can be a good thing, but it can also mislead people if you're
not careful in packaging it. Call it "incorrect locales" or working draft that are
known to contain errors. The purpose of displaying it on the web is to solicit corrections.
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson's proposal was not approved at this time, but may be at the next meeting if
there is not a serious draft.
7.3. Project 11. Natural Languages. Draft document CEN/TC304 N510. Issues document CEN/TC304 N451. Editor: Michael Everson. Papers: N248, N614
Draft N634 was mailed soon after Vienna. Immense response was received. Comments are
being collected by the editor.
Evangelos Melagrakis asked what the population figures mean
Michael Everson: the estimated number of people in Europe speaking the language.
Bruce Paterson: this explanation should be included in the introduction.
Now there is an apparent inconsistency in the document.
Umamaheswaran: a note on 637 is needed.
Evangelos Melagrakis: where is Coptic? reply: under ancient Egyptian.
A discussion on the order of languages in 2.2. The order is by family, but how will
people know that? The solution is by adding subclause numbers in 2.2.
Annexes F, G and H will be merged into one table.
Michael Everson reported that unwrittten languages have been moved into an annex.
Some comments were given at the meeting and taken down by the editor.
AI9701-07 Evangelos Melagrakis to check on languages of Greece.
AI9701-08 Trond Trosterud to check some of the Uralic languages
Umamaheswaran and Bruce Paterson: value judgements in clause 1.2 should be removed. Accepted.
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson mentioned the language Våmhusmålet, which is not included, but there are web-pages about this language. AI9701-09 Trond Trosterud to get more information about this language.
Bruce Paterson raised the question of timetable. 9702 shall be changed to 9710.
The issue of copyright was discussed. TC304 should make it clear to CEN that Michael
Everson has the right to distribute the material he has produced. We could resolve
that Michael Everson should be allowed to retain copyright jointly with CEN. [At the TC this was not done because it was difficult to decide on correct wording -- ME]
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson. said that with the new Belgian copyright law, CEN is in a worse position to take copyright from technical committees (it would require signatures by every expert at every meeting).
7.4. Project 17. European default locale. Work item approved. Issues document CEN/TC304 N579. Editor: Keld Simonsen.
Draft is in N618, was mailed in September.
What is the European currency? ECU or Euro? They will have different value. The sign
in 10646 is called euro/currency and looks like E and C joined and we are not sure
that it was used for ECU.
Michael Everson: we should ask for the new Euro sign to be included in 10646 (looks like C with two horizontal strokes +TM).
Umamaheswaran: TC304 should check with authorities which
of the 2 currencies are to be used in the Eurolocale. AI9701-10 on all to sort out with
their national body whether to use the Euro or ECU and then which symbol. We can also ask Wolf
Arfvidsson because he did some work for the SE government on the Euro. We might consider reopening the issue at next meeting. AI9701-11 Michael Everson to prepare the addition of the new Euro-sign into 10646.
In clause 4 change CEN to CEN/TC304/WG3 (to become CEN), address to be supplied later.
Territory: Europe.
Michael Everson: is this the MES?
Keld Simonsen: it may be more.
Umamaheswaran: it either should be MES or EES1,
nothing else.
Keld Simonsen: I agree, it should be MES+C0 of 6429.
Michael Everson: Regarding the POSIX specifications: the soft hyphen should not be an alphabetic character, it should be a punctuation. In Sįmi, the acute and apostrophe are letters, but this
is covered in the Sįmi locale.
Soft hyphen is moved into punctuation.
Michael Everson: in the lower/upper contains serious errors - AI9701-12 Keld Simonsen to fix the casing tables. AI9701-13 Michael Everson to check the fix.
The date and time format, should it contain the "T"? EN ISO 8601 does.
Michael: we need a copy of that standard.
Umamaheswaran: it should also be verified if this is also the
real cultural requrement of Europe. The T is missing in the narrative, so please
make sure they are in sync. AI9701-14 on MBs to find out whether the T should be there.
There was an action on Michael to provide examples on possible yes/no answers. He
did so (WG2 email no. 156).
Michael Everson: all of them should be allowed.
Keld Simosen: The problem
of allowing all of them is that you must have them all available on the machine.
The result is that only 10+- just like it says in clause 6.
Issues list in document LT32. Issue 8 is closed (use the word Europe), AI9701-15 Michael Everson
to check the new version of 3166 and the possibility to register EU. Issue 11 is
closed (see above). Timeplan: a TC enquiry will be July (not January), TC-approval will
be October (not June).
7.5. Project 19. Cooperation with language engineering projects. Internal work item. Issues document CEN/TC304 N576. Editor: Different liaison officers.
The liaison has resigned. Michael Everson and Keld Simonsen are not interested. Evangelos Melagrakis and Gerhard Budin might be interested. In general WG2 does not have the resources to pursue this.
7.6. Project 21. National specifications of cultural conventions. Internal work item. Issues document CEN/TC304 N576. Also document N339. Editor: (National).
Already covered under agenda items 7.1, 7.2 and 7.4
7.7. Project 22. European Keyboards. European Keyboards - guidelines and overview. Proposed NWI. Issues document CEN/TC304 N576. Justification: Since the engraved character repertoire of keyboards vary among countries, as does the need to access foreign characters, there is a European need for national application guidelines on ISO/IEC 9995 and ISO 14755. Editor: Michael Everson
No draft, no issues list. Approved project.
Project sheet was examined. Deliverable CR. first draft expected feb.97.
Umamaheswaran: is the registration of national keyboards part of this project?
Michael Everson: not
mentioned specifically. That should be a funded thing. 14755 is at the DIS stage
now. Even the editor has a difficulty understanding what should be done.
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson recalled that Evangelos Melagrakis and others wanted to see the output of this project to be something that explainse the mess, raises eybrows in Brussels and makes people aware of the problems, paving the way for more work on keyboards in TC304.
Some of the problems were highlighted during a technical discussion.
Trond Trosterud: Level
4 is really needed. One of the problems with 9995 is that it includes some layouts.
Karl-Ivar Larsson: it would be useful to have a European opinion on where certain letters should be placed. Sweden and Finalnd are trying to harmonize their national keyboards.
Yves Neuville: You are starting in the wrong way by discussing little pieces of the whole picture. There is a WI on an ISO TR. It is too soon to find a solution on the European level. You
should join the work on the ISO report. I am the editor, but really the editing is distributed on a number of experts. It is very good that you are doing a document, but the input will be more efficient if people join the international group.
Michael Everson: That might not be possible due to lack of resources. There isn't very much time left to us today, we must cut this discussion short. This is a very important issue for Europeans. What I really would like to see on this is email discussion and copies of some of the international documents from Yves' group.
Erkki Kolehmainen: I would
like to see a proposed outline for the deliverable.
AI9701-16 Yves Neuville to provide documents on the international work.
AI9701-17 Michael Everson to provide an outline of the report.
8. Liaison reports
Here only liaison reports of specific importance to the projects of WG2 will be addressed, as more general liaison reports will be given at the TC304 plenary. Expected reports here include ISO TC37 and SC22/WG20.
LT25 is the liaison report for SC22.
9. Any other business
LT05 EPIC
LT13 Infoterm (no time to discuss that.)
10. Next meeting
SC2/WG2 will meet 30 June-4 July. TC304/WG3 meets Sat. 5 July. WG3 Mon 7 July, SC2 Tue-Wed 8-9 July. TC304/WG2 Thursday 10 July.
11. Adoption of resolutions, action items, and issues list
AI9406-02 Michael Everson to provide fonts for all characters in EES.
AI9511-12 Keld Simonsen to take contact with TC37 on L/11112a (Terminology formats)
AI9609-03 Michael Everson: Convert N339 into narrative form. LT18
AI9609-04 Michael Everson: Provide introductory text for P2.2.
AI9609-06 Michael Everson: Provide a list of languages where data is missing.
AI9609-07 Michael Everson: Provide an alphabetical list of languages in P11, referring
to the family or page.
AI9609-08 Michael Everson: Add a numbering system in the final version of P11.
AI9609-09 John Clews: Find out whether Khakassian is in Europe.
AI9609-16 All editors: Compile issues lists from these minutes. ONGOING
AI9701-01 Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson to make sure that the parallel thing happens.
AI9701-02 Keld Simonsen and Michael Everson to finalize the MES registrations.
AI9701-03 Michael Everson to coordinate the Danish registrations.
AI9701-04 Keld Simonsen to provide an internal check list for the locales.
AI9701-05 Keld Simonsen to translate (automatically) the POSIX specs into narrative ones that also will need some editing.
AI9701-06 Keld Simonsen to provide new linked draft narrative +POSIX locales on the web.
AI9701-07 Evangelos Melagrakis to check on languages of Greece.
AI9701-08 Trond Trosterud to check some of the Uralic languages
AI9701-09 Trond Trosterud to get more information about Våmhusmålet.
AI9701-10 Everyone to sort out with their national body whether to use the Euro or ECU and then which symbol.
AI9701-11 Michael Everson to prepare the addition of the new Euro-sign into 10646.
AI9701-12 Keld Simonsen to fix the casing tables.
AI9701-13 Michael Everson to check the casing tables once Keld Simonesn fixes them.
AI9701-14 MBs to find out whether the T should be in the time specification (ISO 8601).
AI9701-15 Michael Everson to check the new version of 3166 and the possibility to register EU.
AI9701-16 Yves Neuville to provide documents on the international work on keyboards.
AI9701-17 Michael Everson to provide an outline of the keyboard report.
12. Closing of meeting