CEN/TC304/WG2 N530R
Date: 1995-12-14
Title: Minutes of the 9th meeting of TC304/WG2
Source: Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson
Status: Adopted Minutes
AENOR, Avenida Sarriį 28, Barcelona
1995-11-28
1. Opening of the meeting
Interim Convenor: Michael Everson
Secretary: Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson
2. Roll call of members
FI Martti Lahti
GR Evangelos Melagrakis
IE Michael Everson
IS Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson
LV Imants Métra
SE Sten Lindberg
SE Vera Lundström (observer)
SC22/WG20 Arnold Winkler (via Vienna agreement)
4 Adoption of the agenda and identification of papers relevant to the agenda
WG2 BT01
N511
TC BT04
5. Confirmation of the minutes of meeting no. 8
N448R
6. Review of action items from meeting No. 8 and review of homework
N449
AI9504-002 is closed. Electronic mailing list available, at [email protected].
AI9511-01 AI on interested experts contact [email protected] for joining this e-mail list. AI on interested experts contact Arnold Winkler to receive WG20 documents.
N451
7.0 TC304 Project 2: Registration ENV for Cultural Elements (2.1), TR for Cultural Elements (2.2); editor: Keld Simonsen
Advice to TC concerning the editorial comments received on prENV 12005
N489
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: to give advice to central secretariat on editorial matters.
DK comments: camera ready copy is available for printing. AI on Michael Everson to liaise with Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson and Keld Simonsen about making fonts available to CEN.
We should ask CEN to accept our camera-ready copy because of the formatting errors introduced by CEN CS.
Re: The short and long examples. Discussion about the two kinds.
Evangelos Melagrakis: The annex as it stands is improperly specified. A normative annex shouldn't have informative clauses.
Keld Simonsen: It's ok to do it this way, perfectly normal.
Sten Lindberg: Is there anything in the rules to say you can't have informative elements in the normative anenx.?
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: no, there isn't, you can have notes, and examples.
Nobody said anything about the two annexes.
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: then this should be one clause, with short and long examples.
The other problem with the examples
Clause 5. A complete example for Danish is included in Annex E.6.1. That example gives the following reordering:
Response to editorial comments.
Resolution we ahve accepted and accommodated al the comments submitted for this document.
7.1 Registration authority
N512
Procedure: BT has been informed by TC Secretariat.
Keld Simonsen: BT was long ago informed when we started this project. De Klerk and Oswald were consulted.
Michael Everson: WG2 recommends to TC on Friday
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: will the TC be in a position to nominate on Friday, or do we need a call for nominations?
Evangelos Melagrakis: It is procedurally correct to send a call.
WG2 recommends to TC304 to send out a call for nominations for an RA for the Cultural Element standard, to be answered before end of December.
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: we should let the complaints come from BTS7, we should have TC304 make the nomination of DKUUG on Friday.
Evangelos Melagrakis: I think we should have a call for nominations.
WG2 will let TC304 make the decision on Friday.
7.2 ISO 639 recommendations
"In its work on repertoires for national langages and on registration of CE, TC04 has noted that the following languages do not have two-letter codes. TC304 therefore asks Infoterm to consider assigning codes to them. Proposals for such codes are included."
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: Competent bodies: Evangelos mentioned competent bodies. But the problem is that a lot of those bodies are not competent.
Keld Simonsen: we have a need for a cultural element like a language code, we need codes for IT, we should be one of the best authorities, one of the most obvious places where this should be done.
Arnold Winkler: Evangelos' concern is that you didn't have a chance to see the document, so accept Michael Everson's suggestion to delay it, send it out as a TC304 document. What Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson suggests is right, a lot of bodies don't have a competence or interest in these matters. If a group like this is prepared to do this, the people who see it in those ountrues, unless it is done by somebody like us, it'll never be done. Let's do it so that countries which do have minorities, andwhich do care, can ask their local experts.
Michael Everson: OK, we will delay
Keld Simonsen: can we speed it up a little bit? Culd we send it for comment in the TC, for 1.5-3 months?
Evangelos Melagrakis: it can be done by correspondance.
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: keep it in WG, we can forward it to TC for 6-week ballot.
AI on experts in this group to comment on this paper before 1 January. The editor will then AI on Michael Everson to propose something to TC. Forward resulting paper for balloting to TC304.
PT01 discussions
L/1311 European default locale: p. 56 of report describes this item. Deliverable, and Keld Simonsen has offered to edit. He is working on a World Locale as well.
Standards don't specify transliteration. WG4 should give input to WG2.
Copyright of ENVs, would make it difficult to register some things in the cultural registry. This would be difficult because CEN owns copyright.
Keld Simonsen: many things in ECMA registry, are ISO standards, they are (c) ISO, but are still given away free by ECMA.
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: I want as much as everyone to get this information out. One way is to ask CEN to release copyright as soon as we get working on it.
Arnold Winkler: ISO has done this for some standards before, given copyright permission, but the terms state '"'for further standardization work'"'.
Keld Simonsen: ISO 10646 Annes E has all he names of the characters in it Keld Simonsen and Mike Ksar got permission to put that annex on web server.
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: we have good reasons. We should say we can't start working on this otherwise itis pointless. We should ask '"'for general use or at least for standaridzation work'"'.
L/11113a Guidelines and procedures for the development of internatonalized software products.
The WI is a review. Is a review a valid work item?
Keld Simonsen: A study mandate. It doesn't need a NWI.
NWI: So we should ask TC to undertake this work. Deliverable : further recommendations.
Evangelos Melagrakis and Michael Everson editors, we can contact Demokratos, and Claris.
L/11114 Harmonized and lexical resources and tools for automatic translation.
MAITS intends to make APIs for this.
TC304 has no direct contact with Parole,. there are no known standards at this time, but Ask TC to send a letter and PT01 Report to Parole
L/1114
Same as above
SC22: see agenda item 11: TC BT02 Plan for cooperation with SC22
SC22/WG15 (POSIX) items not covered by locales. IS 14652.
L/2111b Marketing
Evangelos Melagrakis: we are sometimes criticized for working on implementation of standards as opposed to making of standards
Michael Everson: in Luxembourg we were asked to do some marketing
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: Standardization has to get closer to implementors and developers
Michael Everson: This seems to be a NWI. Marketing the Registry to NBs. Keld Simonsen and Michael Everson?
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: a way of working in Vienna agreement is to have a WI andto have the other gourp do the work.
It was not strictly speaking decided.
Thorough review of the draft of PT??? (ca. N433) by SC20 when it will be sent to us in a very short time. TC Sec will send it out to WG2.
Common meetings are required to elaborate on these WIs, preferably
Ask Gerhard Budin about a CEN meeting.
Do we want any of these as ENs?
Keld Simonsen: To invoke parallel voting agreement we have to have a CEN WI.
Evangelos Melagrakis: We only transpose ISs which are needed for specific procurement, or obligation for Europe. If we can use the IS without making it obligatory for Europe, we need not transpose it.
Keld Simonsen: the API standard should be put forward for parallel voting.
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: the International cultural registry.
TC37 cooperation:
L/11112a
JTC1/SC21 cooperation:
C/3331 Introduction of locales in ISO/IEC 9594 The Directory.
Send 12005 to them.
8. TC304 project 11: Character repertoires for natural languages; editor: Michael Everson
Discussion of issues and draft proposal
N449
New
4 levels of support for a specific language, cf. the Nordic report, also Johan van Wingen's earlier for Danish 29 letters, + you can accent each vowels for stress, level 2 (9 more), + frequently occurring foreign letters; 4th level
Keld Simonsen: for this report 2 levels are necessary, an optional 3rd level should be added. AI on Michael Everson to look at Johan van Wingen's version.
Sten Lindberg: Letters additional to the formal alphabet. Swedish has this. There are very fussy limits for those elvels, what is in newspapers is rapidly expanding, Latin 2 is used in Sweden (Lech Walesa etc.)
Evangelos Melagrakis: 2 levels are necessary, a third or fourth level is doubtful.
Evangelos Melagrakis: There should be names for characters not in the UCS. if the UCS characters we should use the UCS name.
CEN copyright and TRs
Michael Everson: wants to publish this on the Web in all cases
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: wants to use this to test CEN.
Keld Simonsen: are we asking for trouble?
Žorvaršur Kįri Ólafsson: CEN 251 is putting a lot of things up on the Web, we're not the only ones.The advice I have got is to provoke them by putting things on the web.
9. Advice to TC on selected items of the PT01 report (see WG2 e-mail No. 79 and 80)
N451
10. Homework until the next meeting
11. Liaison reports
NSAI/AGITS/WG6
Publication for 2.2 no change TR on Cultural Elements
Publication for P11 octobet 96
12. Date of the next meeting
We'll need a day, meet in April or May
13. Any other business
Icelandic document draft for national enquiry, for info to WG2, middle of January is deadline.
Keld Simonsen: is Finland progressing on locale?
Martti Lahti: We are working on it.